Uwade and Bells Larsen Are Just Trying to Be Themselves

Bells Larsen is a Toronto-born, Montreal-based singer-songwriter; Uwade is a Nigerian-born, North Carolina-raised singer-songwriter and academic — who, after studying Classics at Columbia and Oxford, is currently pursuing a PhD in California. Both have records that just came out last week: Bells’s Blurring Time and Uwade’s Florilegium. Earlier this month, before the releases, Bells and Uwade got on a Zoom call to download about it all. 
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music

Bells Larsen: How’s it going? 

Uwade: Hi, Bells! I’m good, I’m here.

Bells: Where’s “here” right now?

Uwade: Here is Palo Alto, California. What about you? Where are you right now?

Bells: Kind of random, I’m in Ancaster, Ontario at an alpaca farm. Tonight is the first day of this little mini tour that I’m doing all around Ontario, and I do drive, but not well enough to bring myself from place to place. So I’ve enlisted the help of my brother and his girlfriend to be my Sherpas, and my brother’s girlfriend’s family has an alpaca farm in the middle of nowhere, Ontario.

Uwade: Wow. That’s great. Are you going to spend time with the alpacas?

Bells: I’d love to, in between shows. Alpacas aside, how are you feeling now that you are — well, I guess we both are two weeks out from record release mode.

Uwade: I wish I were processing everything as it was happening, but I feel like it’s just happening and I’m just trying to get through it all. It’s so exciting, but it’s also kind of scary. This being my debut album, I just want it to be out totally. I’m scared and I’m invigorated.

Bells: How does this feel different for you from the singles that you’ve put out in the past, or the projects that you’ve been on? Obviously it’s a lot more personal and heavier, because this is your first record…

Uwade: I think it’s more assertive.

Bells: Ooh, love.

Uwade: I feel like in the past, I’ve been sort of like, “I just want to try put some things out so people hear my voice!” But this time I was like, “Not everyone’s going to like every song. I’m not looking for mass appeal.” I just wanted to say these things and share these things. What about you? How did this one feel different?  

Bells: I mean, there are a few key differences. I think with my first record, Good Grief — and I’d love to talk to you about this, too, because I understand that grief is very much peppered throughout your record — grief was obviously, as it says in the name, the starting point. And as you maybe are feeling right now, it’s a tough thing to put something out that is so deeply personal. And it was my first kick at the can performing under my own name, reintroducing myself to the world as a musician, but also reintroducing myself to the world with the name I use now. So it was a very vulnerable process, and I think I was a bit too green to know how to separate self and artist. And to be totally honest with you, there are some times where I wonder if it might have been smarter to perform under a different name. Because I find that it can sometimes be tough to know where the self ends and where the artist begins.

My first record was inspired by the loss of my first love when I was 19, and I just didn’t really know how to not have the “reception” — I say that in quotations, because it’s very subjective — I didn’t know how to not have that be a direct reflection on the worth of the songs or of me as a musician. And now, almost three years later, the body of work that I’m releasing is in some ways much more vulnerable. But I think that I understand boundaries a bit more with regards to myself and social media, and I understand that the industry isn’t real. Or, it is real, obviously; it’s more social media that isn’t real. So I feel a lot healthier. I feel a lot happier. It’s really unfortunate what is happening in the world right now topically. It feels very strange to be putting out this music. But I’m enjoying the rollout exponentially more. 

Uwade: Wow. So many things. First of all, your name is beautiful. It’s so consonant and mellifluous. 

Bells: Oh, thank you!

Uwade: And second, to your point about not knowing where to draw the line between artist and self: I mean, you can always have the, “This day and age…” conversation, but actually it feels like this day and age requires artists to give a lot more of themselves, and milk the whole cult of personality thing. I don’t know if you’ve felt that way.

Bells: Yeah, a bajillion percent. And I was going to ask you too, with regards to the milking of it all: you’re obviously in the middle of the rollout. Are you finding moments within this that are just for you? Like, putting out such a beautiful and vulnerable record as you are doing, do you find that there are things that you don’t feel the pressure to milk or commodify?

Uwade: That’s a great question. Well, I try to journal. I haven’t done as much as I used to, but… In terms of having the time to just see the world and be with myself, there are pockets, but it feels like this is very much a time of being forward-facing. We’re putting work out, so I’ve done the reflection. The way I’m trying to justify it is that I’ve had my time to really be with myself, and now I can’t really do that, and that’s OK. Hopefully it’ll pass. 

Bells: Totally, it’s a cycle. Have you ever done The Artist’s Way?

Uwade: I haven’t, but I’ve read you talking about it.

Bells: It’s so good. I can’t recommend it enough. It’s 25 bucks, which is so much less than I’ve spent on therapy. There’s two core tenets of the book: One of them is that you need to journal every single day, three pages of stream of consciousness writing. And the other thing is that once a week, you need to take yourself out on an artist date. The thesis of the book is essentially that your inner child and your inner artist are one and the same, and you need to foster them, you need to nourish them, you need to love them. It’s very woo-woo, but I loved it. I did it in the pandemic. The author [Julia Cameron] sees creativity in general as an ebb and flow, and with the journaling you are outputting, you’re expelling your thoughts, your feelings, your energy, whatever. And then with the artist dates, you are receiving. So, yeah, I think that she would agree that there are moments of putting out and there are moments of taking in, and that’s perfectly healthy and good.

You know who swears by The Artist’s Way? Doechii.

Uwade: I know, I’ve been hearing about it because of her!

Bells: Yeah, she vlogged her whole process doing it, and she is smashing it. 

Uwade: I think it’s gotten a lot of attention because of her. And now you! So maybe I need to go for it.

Bells: I mean, I don’t know what your plans are post-tour — I know you’re doing some shows in May — maybe after the shows, you could go into hibernation mode. I feel like during interviews, a lot of them will end with the “what’s next” question. My question is not that, but: do you foresee yourself needing to hibernate? Or do you feel like because you’re already in the rollout process, you want to keep going? What’s your vibe?

Uwade: I think I need to keep going. I need to give the rollout process and the album promo season a good go, but I would love to hibernate at some point. What about you? 

Bells: I’m not really sure, to be totally honest with you. I’m not sure when this interview will be published, but by the time it is, I will have announced that I had to cancel all of my American tour dates because of a new US immigration policy that does not let me come in as a trans person. So I’m in this moment right now where I’m having to pivot. And, yeah, this is my second record, but I’m in some ways considering it my first because of, again, reintroducing myself. And this is the first time where I’ve really tried to break into the American market. So I’m having to stop and cancel these shows and think about what I could do instead. And these shows, to be totally transparent, weren’t going to really move the needle that much in terms of the grand scheme of my career. But I saw them as planting of the seeds to be able to come back, meet other cool American musicians, build those relationships. And so now I’m thinking more [shows in] Canada or maybe EU, UK. Part of me is inclined to hibernate because of everything. But also I, too, want to give my record the longevity it deserves. I just am not entirely sure how I’m going to do that right now.

Uwade: Every day, I wake up and I’m like, What is actually going on in this country and in this world? It’s so strange, like you said, to be putting out music right now. And I imagine for you even more so, because you’re actually being harmed and targeted by so many of these policies. 

But I was going to ask — on that note, thinking about identity, I read in an interview that you mentioned you don’t want to necessarily be “Bells Larsen, the queer trans artist.” You want everyone to find something in your music. My first question is wondering whether that statement is still true, because it could have changed. And second — in some way, I don’t deal with exactly the same thing, but a form of it, where part of me wants to be a voice for my community, but then also I don’t want to have that be the only thing that makes people care about my music. So I was wondering what your experience with that is, wanting to be a voice versus just wanting to be yourself.

Bells: It’s a great question. I kind of go back and forth. I certainly don’t want to be a poster boy for a movement of any kind. I do hope that people listen to the music first because they like it and think it’s good, before it being an accompaniment to a headline that says that I can’t pursue my career in the way I wanted to. I feel really torn because on one side, I don’t think that there’s anything particularly radical about what I am doing just by virtue of existing. Like, I’m literally just trying to be myself. I’m trying to feel like I’m living authentically. But then now there’s this inherent politicization in the music, in me releasing the music, that there wasn’t necessarily in the same way when I was writing and recording it three, four years ago. And I welcome that. I am queer and I am trans, and that’s inextricable from who I am. I’m also other things too. So I really just want this music to humanize me, humanize my community, so that we can be seen in our complexities, in our fullness. So I do welcome that description and that categorization more than I did a couple of years ago. But, yeah, I also hope that people can see it’s a “yes, and,” as they say in improv.

How do you feel about that? And when you are speaking about it with your experience, are you speaking specifically about being Black and Nigerian, or are you speaking about other things?

Uwade: Specifically about being Black and Nigerian. Lots of the things I’ve done, the decisions I’ve made in my life, have been forms of mini rebellion. My decision to study things that people say are for dead white men, and then being a Black woman in those areas — that was very deliberate, to want to be in that space. Or to be in this indie rock world that’s, again, very cis white male. But wanting to be someone that represents in a way that I wanted to be represented when I was growing up, it’s important to me, but less and less so. In the sense that I used to feel like so many battles were mine to fight when I was growing up, and now I’m like, I just want to live my life. And there’s a lot of discourse about how existing is a radical act, and joy is radical, and I think more and more I’m settling into that and wanting to be an individual who can speak for myself and can be, maybe not a model for others, but maybe some sort of inspiration, [rather] than wanting to lead an entire community. 

Bells: Yeah, 100%. I mean, I know that there will be so many young Black indie rockers who will see their story reflected in yours. And I didn’t even think about the parallel between your two worlds — are you still studying classics?

Uwade: Yeah, I’m in my dorm room right now. 

Bells: I did philosophy for two years and I concur, it’s an unbelievable amount of white guys who are saying a whole lot of nothing in a lot of words. Obviously important stuff, too, sometimes, but just a huge lack of representation. What is your interest?

Uwade: I did my master’s and undergrad thesis on Aesop’s fables as a form of popular philosophy, but more like practices of enslavement in the ancient world and how they intersect with literature. So thinking about freed people writing literature, or what their literature would look like, if that’s even a genre that’s helpful to think with. And just thinking about marginalized voices, and marginalized voices thinking about morality versus the Platos and the Aristotles who were citizens and had all the rights, and what that difference in moral thinking looks like. So that’s where I am. I’m also interested in the reception of classics, how people in the African diaspora have thought with these texts. Because what came to my mind just now when thinking about the fact that it’s historically a very white discipline, is that part of me is like, “OK, yes, that is true.” And then part of me is also not looking to the field as a model. Like, these ancient authors — they were cool and I’m interested in their ideas, but it’s not like I want to be part of the club or part of the history. It’s kind of a miserable club to be part of. [Laughs.] So just thinking about that, studying something versus wanting to be represented in it. 

Bells: For sure. Do you have a similar mindset about that when it comes to music?

Uwade: I think so. I think I’m in the process of that shifting. More than anything, I just want to make my own space for myself. Like, I really love the Solange album A Seat at the Table. Fantastic music, and also great messaging. But I’m more and more just thinking I would like to make my own table. I don’t care about the seat, because the seat you’re going to give me is going to be missing a leg.

Bells: Period. It’s going to be janky. It’s going to be the seat where the leg of the table is in between your legs.

Uwade: Exactly. So have your table, enjoy your table. I’m gonna make my own table.

Bells: I would love to be at your table.

Uwade: You’re welcome. We can craft a table and invite an alpaca.

Bells: I was going to ask you also: I have two favorite songs on your album. The first is “Amenaghawon.” I love that song, and also “Harmattan.” I wanted to know first what “harmattan” means. Also, I teared up at the the recording at the end of “Amenaghawon.” It’s so beautiful. I understand that that’s your mom, yeah?

Uwade: Yeah.

Bells: I would love to know what was the thought behind including that at the end of that song.

Uwade: Harmattan is a weather phenomenon. It’s a season, basically, in West Africa. It’s the dry season. Dust is blown from the Sahara, and it covers countries and makes everything really dry and dusty and hazy, and it can be really hard health wise for some people. But it’s also just kind of uncomfortable. So it’s about that slight discomfort that’s also a little bit beautiful. 

And my mom being included — she’s my best friend. She’s my girl. I was talking to her just before this. I call her, like, five times a day. I really love her, and I just wanted her voice to be immortalized on the record. 

Bells: That makes me so emotional, because I know that a big inspiration for the record was the passing of your dad. And he is very immortalized in this music, obviously in a different way. We can hear the grief, we can hear the memories. And then to think of the other parent being immortalized again in a different way through a voice recording is so stunning. I just think it’s such a special way of storytelling, and you’re such a beautiful storyteller through your lyricism. I think it just made for this really beautiful multi-sensory experience.

Uwade: So kind of you. And I will share my favorite track, which is “Might.”

Bells: Oh, thanks!

Uwade: Oh, my gosh. I was listening to it, and I know you mention in the bio that a big part of the fact that you’re — it’s not harmonizing with yourself, because you’re singing the same melody. But somehow you’re singing with yourself, as you were, as you are, as you’ve always been. I was so struck by it, along with the lyric that’s like, “I moved through time, but somehow I’m exactly the same.” You can’t always assume that what you write in lyric is how you feel, so I want to ask: do you feel that way? And second, I wanted to ask how that contrasts with an earlier song on the record, where you say, “I think I’ve become the sort of someone who scared me stiff when I was younger.” Do you feel that there’s a tension between change and ultimately being the same person at your core? How do you balance the two of those things?

Bells: I’ve really wrestled with change a lot — says the trans guy. But, yeah, I remember my second or third day on testosterone, I cried because I was scared of not being able to cry anymore. And I was really excited for some of the changes that I knew would come, but I was so nervous that transitioning would change me for the worse. And I do feel the same. Yes, I am the same person I was three years ago. I still love to bake and I still love Justin Bieber. But I feel like on a more foundational level, maybe I changed for the better. I think I’m more confident. I’m more sure of myself. I am happier. I think that because of a lot of BS that’s out there, there’s a part in a lot of [trans people’s] coming outs that is self-doubt, and do we really want this and are we going to regret it? And something like 98% of the time, it’s no. But I was really, really, really scared, because there’s so many unknowables. Especially when you are someone who relies on your voice as your main instrument. So there was a lot of fear at the beginning. But I’m very happy with all of the changes, emotional and physical, that have happened so far. 

Uwade: I love that there are songs that you have in French. That’s so cool.

Bells: Thank you. Yeah, I split my time between Toronto and Montreal, and I grew up speaking French. My parents wanted me to work in government — joke’s on them, I’m a musician. But I’m dating a Quebecois person, and we speak in French I’d say 30% of the time, because their English is better than my French. But both of those songs on the record were written to woo them.

Uwade: Beautiful. They’re so gorgeous. 

Bells: Do you have a favorite song on your record?

Uwade: I think it shifts, but right now there’s a part of the song “The Second Station” that I ate with, low key. I don’t always think I do, but the chorus — “Gather all your expectations, sacrifice them in the night. Disappoint yourself and others until you feel light” — I don’t know what I was on that day, but I appreciate that lyric. How about you?

Bells: I think “Might,” just because I also think I ate. But I wanted to really validate that I feel absolutely like you ate for that song, too. But also truly the whole record. I know that the title of your album translates to “Gathering Flowers.” That’s right?

Uwade: Yeah.

Bells: I had the pleasure of listening to the album twice or thrice in the last couple of days, and it truly did feel like being offered a bouquet of all of these beautiful experiences. I know that we are just meeting for the first time right now, but I felt so lucky to be let in, not only on all of these things that you have been through, but also this beautiful smorgasbord of genre. It really felt like, Oh, my god, she’s giving me a tulip here. She’s giving me a sunflower here. So I’m so excited for the world to hear these songs. I think that you have really, really made something very special.

Uwade: Thank you. You too. Seriously. Thank you, Bells!

Bells: Thank you! I think this has been my fave interview to date.