Hi Anna –
I’m looking forward to seeing you up here in NYC and ushering Girls Town (back) out into the world. I’ve done a number of interviews in the past few days (blogs/podcasts, etc) and I have to say, the enthusiasm for the film is pretty great – lots of folks who saw it back in the day and are now like, “This is so relevant!” And it is! Even more today than 30 years ago, I think – and even more than two years back, when we screened the restoration at MoMA. With the bros taking over the world, I think this film will really speak to a lot of people. I started an Instagram account (though inauspicious timing, as I’m trying to figure out leaving IG for the Meta of it all) but in the meantime, FYI, it’s @girlstownmovie …

Hey, Jim –
This is all very exciting. So, so great to hear about the enthusiasm for the movie. That is AWESOME! Bros may be taking over parts of the world, but not all of it. And I LOVE the Insta account (although, yeah, ready to jettison all social media from my life). It’s so amazing to see the Polaroids and I love that people are excited to see the film. The ways in which the film is still relevant are both interesting – and confounding! (For example, my niece, a senior in high school, is developing a straw that doubles as a roofie test strip. Why should kids – or anyone – need this??)
That’s interesting that it seems like the movie feels more relevant today than 30 years ago, or two years ago. I’m curious to hear your thoughts about why this is, and about how you saw the film 30 years ago vs. how you see it today. For me, I’m struck by a sense of innocence or naivete – which is certainly partly about looking at my younger self, but also seeing the film through the lens of the MeToo movement’s revelations and the current political climate. There’s also such a strong counterpoint or tension between the violence of the opening and the lightness and humor of the later parts of the film. Watching the opening during the sound test we did at MoMA, I was so uncomfortable. Way more uncomfortable than I’ve been watching any other movie lately. It’s truly awful. You can really feel Nikki’s isolation in her trauma. Even though the film feels uneven, the lightness of the later scenes is such a strong rebuke to the opening’s violence, and that seems like part of the movie’s power, and maybe part of what audiences respond to. As if the movie is saying: nah, we’re telling a different story.
It’s interesting what you write about a sense of innocence or naivete – by that do you mean that the film itself feels that way? Or that we were? Or that society was? I’ve done a lot of obsessive thinking lately about arcs of time. It started last year with (part of) our world’s (and my own) steep learning curve about Palestine and seeing how there’s ancient history, then centuries of history and then decades and then years and months … and how as time passes (and also due to technology, media, etc.), more and more people “discover” information. So when Girls Town was released almost 30 years ago, many viewers were like, “This is revelatory!” And I, at the time, remember thinking … none of this is new, really. Maybe it’s being presented in a different way, format, or style than some people had seen, but it’s not like any of the issues in the film had been secret. < And yet…! Secrets are key to the film – secrets are kept, then revealed, and then acted upon (and close watchers can see that not all of them have come out of the bag).> But getting back to the arc of time thing – when we screened the 4K restoration for the first time at MoMA two years ago, a whole new story formed regarding the film. People who had seen it 25 years earlier looked at it within that span of time and measured how what seemed “new” or “fresh” back then was or was not still relevant – or urgent – or visceral in the present day. And then there’s a whole other thing going on, a mini-arc (that maybe isn’t so mini), which is that in just the two years between ’23 and ’25, the film feels in many ways even more urgent, more relevant. This due to the epidemic of hyper-male culture online, political setbacks in government and the Supreme Court, and the pending installation of a proud misogynist to the presidency. Like, wow.

Yes, I share that sense of surprise at the current state of affairs. And it’s both the film and the makers that seem innocent in some ways now. This definitely has to do with the current reactionary political climate. Who among us would have predicted that 30 years later we would have a president, a Supreme Court Justice, a cabinet nominee, all with credible accusations of sexual assault turn up in their background checks? It’s true that, as you say, that none of this is or was new. But I think people felt that the film was revelatory partly because of the way the story was told. First, there’s the basic structural fact that you, a straight white male, decided to put your own story aside and created a space for four young women, White and Black, to help create the screenplay. Second, there’s the basic aesthetic choice (which is also a political choice) to avoid any visual representation of rape. There’s no shortage of representations of violence against women. A story about sexual assault that doesn’t show the assault, back then, and maybe today – was revelatory. Maybe today there are more films with strong female characters. But, at the same time, a film with the central visual motif of a powerful woman kneeling in front of a man is being lauded as revolutionary (Babygirl). Which is not say that people shouldn’t have and play out their fantasies. I’m all for it. But I’m not going to call a movie revolutionary because its middle-aged, accomplished female character is desirable specifically in the context of her subjugation. So yeah, it does maybe feel naive to have believed that a movie can move the needle of centuries of culture. But then, I loved hearing back then that people found the movie empowering. And I love hearing that there’s enthusiasm for it now. I do think that the humor and lightness is part of that. Not glossing over the violence, because it’s obviously so present (just thinking of Patti’s heart wrenching confrontation with her ex-boyfriend, as an example), but bringing something else to the foreground, both narratively and visually. And I think that tension between the heaviness of the subject matter, and the lightness and humor that’s part of how these young women respond to it, speaks to a sense of possibility – that it’s possible that there’s another story, or another way to live – and audiences really responded to that. Maybe, with all the heaviness in the world right now, we need some of that sense of possibility now.
I’m curious to hear what the secrets are that don’t get revealed. I’m not sure I know what those are.
Since we’ve now agreed that our email exchange is going to be published in Talkhouse, if I spoke to that last thought, then they wouldn’t be secrets anymore! But you and I shall discuss….
But “a sense of possibility” – cool. And yes, at this moment, we are very much in need of ways forward. I was proud of the “humor and lightness” of the film, too. I think much of it came about via the improv workshop sessions, for sure. That was such an incredible vehicle through which to “thicken” the storytelling. Improv a scene, make some adjustments, do another improv take. Sit down at the table and talk – what worked, what didn’t? Did anything that happened over there change/effect basic character attributes? Make adjustments to character. Get back up, do another improv. Now it’s going someplace else … It was really a pretty cool way to work. Scary as fuck. But yeah – you actors were feeling things. And I was feeling other things as a watcher. And so there was constant experimentation as to the places the scenes could go to, the actual content of the scenes, and the overriding story. “Thickening” the storytelling. I’m going to keep that one! I also like that you said “even though the film feels uneven.” It is! And a couple times cringey. But the bouncing back and forth from hyperrealist scenes (the basement scene, for instance) and over-the-top scenes (the fight in the Girl’s Room), and fun scenes (the robbery) keeps continually taking the shine off any one set tone. I don’t know, it’s not like any of this was intentional or analyzed within the course of creating the film. The whole thing was just so organic and visceral. (I’m realizing that I’m writing about the improvisation workshop – in part – and many people reading this won’t know what that was. But that’s what Google is for, I guess. And there’s a nice interview in which it’s discussed here written by Julia Gunnison, who is actually moderating our opening night Q&A at IFC!)
Back to “secrets” for a second —
“What are the words you do not have? What do you need to say?… for it is not difference that immobilizes us, but silence. And there are so many silences to be broken.” This Audre Lorde quote is featured in the film. It’s really at the center of the whole story. And the story isn’t about keeping things secret from “the authorities,” but from one’s self and those closest to you. And within the course of the film, we see how sharing with others, communicating with people close to you can free you. But that’s something that’s really difficult for some people to do. Now, present day, social media is all about “sharing.” But it takes place in this vacuum and this arena of divisiveness. Block, like, troll … I think the absolute overload of information, advice, “life hacks” … it can end up shutting communication down, putting up walls, and making people feel more shitty rather than less. Which brings me to another thought, which is that I wonder if, 30 years later, this film has a place in the worlds of young men. The obvious (target) audience is young women, but I wonder if young men can view this film, which is so “girl power,” and connect with it. It wasn’t made for them. It was super intentionally made for young women, right? But I think young men need a way in to something like this right now. All the “Dylans” out there (the character in the Girls Town, not talking about Timothée Chalamet here).

I love this Audre Lorde quote. It really is about finding words that haven’t been spoken, articulating a reality that doesn’t exist in the world yet, making it real by finding the words for it. And that is definitely freeing. Which is not unlike the process of making the movie – the improv workshop process with all of its challenges, imperfections, starts and stops, but then finding moments of authenticity (and yeah, also some moments of cringey self-consciousness). And I think this speaks to the sense of possibility too. That, way before video, way before you could make a movie on an iPhone, the film got made and out in the world with no budget and little industry support. That was scrappy of you. And the film is scrappy, too. I think it’s a great question you ask about whether the film has a place in the worlds of young men. And yes, I think it does. I wonder whether one way to answer this question is to talk about what drew you to the story. It was clearly a story you felt compelled to fight for. I’m wondering if you could speak to what was behind that for you, 30 years ago.
Yow. That’s a big question. My mom was a pretty strong woman – she mostly ran the household, was a school teacher, then started a cooperative nursery school in the 1970s … My dad was a teacher and a big reader who took me to my first concert (Richie Havens) and to jazz clubs when I was like 14, when I was learning to play the drums. It wasn’t like some radical household or anything. But I think there were enough books, enough culture in the house, that when I got older and did get exposed to politics, most of my learning came through culture. I learned about Nicaragua because the Clash made Sandinista! I learned about South Africa from the Sun City project, about labor from Harlan County, USA, etc. And then when I started thinking about making a film, because I hadn’t gone to film school, I wasn’t thinking in terms of cinematic ambitions or Hollywood dreams, but approaching it more from the social influences around me – strong, smart women; punk and hip hop; left-wing politics; and documentary and independent films. I’m also kind of unhealthily obsessed with issues of fairness and justice and was thinking a lot at the time about terrorism and the question of when it’s an appropriate action within imbalances of power. Finally, I had a lot of woman friends who had confided in me about sexual abuse and assault. Like, a lot. So all these things led to the idea of making a story about a group of girls who find themselves seeking revenge against a rapist. I think I thought that creating a story by starting with a big question – when is retribution outside the law justified? – would be much more fun and interesting than creating a story that started with an answer. And that’s what led me to the collaboration that led to the making of Girls Town.
But again, to go back to those tiny arcs of history – “feminism” has always been here, whether it was called that or not. And there have always been men who have acted as feminists, just like there have always been men who specialize in hatred and violence (and women who stand alongside them). I think young people today have much more open and honest conversations/views about gender, queerness and sexuality than ever before. But all the knowledge exists in the midst of extreme divisiveness. On one side, boys are more accepting of fluidity than ever. But the boys who aren’t can be angry, intolerant, and violent. Is this new or has this always been there? Maybe the language has changed and the information has spread more widely, but like with most things, the situation isn’t that different. These old white guys in business and politics have always been afraid of powerful women and have always wanted their women subservient. It just so happens that now they are in power and can take the masks off and act on their beliefs and desires.
Now that I’ve gone off on a tear and gotten macro, I have to get micro to match the size of “our little movie” and move to the question of what this film has in it for young men and I think after all this, it’s probably pretty simple. They need validation – especially because their world is so turbulent right now. I have a tendency to be skeptical about the possibility of change. Because skepticism is easier/lazier. I’m learning this now on many levels. And the bigger you can make your problem, the more impossible it will be to eradicate it. So you just end up sitting it out and getting depressed. Eradication will never happen. So what’s a small good thing? There are so many thoughtful, respectful, loving and righteous young men out there and it’s actually a really hard time for them. Girls Town isn’t going to touch them because they see themselves in it – there’s only really one good guy in the film (Cam, Angela’s friend). And Dylan, who is trying hard to figure it all out. But those young men can watch the film and maybe feel good about themselves and their values because they don’t see themselves in the sexist or violent male characters onscreen. And isn’t that a nice, interesting experience – to see something that’s not about or catered to you and to see, learn from, and sympathize with someone else’s story.
Now a big question for you – you’ve always been very generous about the way I shared the process of making this film with you and others. I feel the same – you took a chance on this, trusted me and a process that you had no real guarantee were trustworthy or would work, and you shared the process with me. Where did that come from, how did that feel, and were there times when you wondered what you had gotten yourself into?

Wow – this is a big answer. It’s moving to read about where you were coming from back then. Especially that it was partly hearing from women friends who had confided in you about sexual abuse and assault that moved you to the collaborative process of making the movie. Not everyone would respond to these confidences this way. I agree that today more young people, including male-identified young people, are more accepting and supportive of different gender expressions and, for lack of a better phrase, female empowerment or girl power. These folks – the thoughtful, respectful, loving and righteous folks, need all our love, support, and encouragement, especially right now. So they can speak up, and find the words for what they need to say. (Right now, I’ve been searching for the words to honor young Palestinians who are living through an unimaginably hard time.) Skepticism can feel easier because it enables inaction. But then you’re left with accepting things the way they are, and that’s usually not all that easy. At least not for me …
This is a great question about where my sense of trust in the project came from. In some ways, we have similar backgrounds: I was raised by a strong mother and a supportive father who were political (they met in the movement against the U.S. war in Vietnam, my father worked on rent control, and, among other things, my mother was a litigator and plaintiff’s side civil rights attorney who ran her own practice). And like you, a lot of what I learned came through art and culture. Perhaps because of how I was raised, I’ve always been compelled by questions of fairness and justice (it’s no accident that I traded a creative practice for a legal practice) and, for better or worse, have always had a tendency to run headlong towards things I believed in, regardless of risk. I’d been acting since I was a child and by 1993, when we started working on the project, I was plenty frustrated with the way theater and film were dominated by very traditional views of gender and sexuality. Back then, there was very little room for representation of anything outside of a very narrow idea of what it meant to be female, which was mostly just the love interest for the central character who was male. If you happen to be a feminist actor, or a queer, masculine-of-center feminist actor, you can only hear the blocking direction to walk over to the male character and kneel so many times before you start a fight. Or at least start thinking about doing something else. Girls Town felt like an incredible opportunity to do something different, and create characters who girls in the audience could recognize themselves in. So yes, there were definitely times, especially during the period between the workshop and the first day of filming a couple years later, when I thought, Maybe this is going nowhere … But I always felt it was worth doing, and worth making an effort to make it better if I could. And then the film’s reception, being embraced at Sundance, and hearing from young people that they felt empowered by it – that was incredibly rewarding.
Beautiful.
This was great.
Nick at Talkhouse is waiting to get something to put on the site, so we have to stop. But I want to continue this conversation….
And I think we will, not just when I see you at this weekend’s screenings, but hopefully also in some of the featured extras on the Blu-ray that will be released next year!
