Algernon Cadwallader is a band from Yardley, PA. Their latest record, Trying Not to Have a Thought, is out now on Saddle Creek.
Peter Helmis is a musician based in Portland, OR, who fronts the band Algernon Cadwallader, and plays in the bands Dogs on Acid and Yankee Bluff; Pat Graham is a musician based in LA who fronts the band Spraynard, plays in the band Big Nothing, and plays solo as Talking Kind. The new Algernon record, Trying Not to Have a Thought, just came out last week on Saddle Creek, so to celebrate, the longtime friends got on a Zoom call and caught up.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music
Peter Helmis: Pat, I’m excited to talk to you today. They told me about this interview like, “Hit up a songwriting friend, anyone.” And I said, “My friend Pat Graham, please.”
Pat Graham: Hell yeah.
Peter: Because I know you don’t like talking on the phone.
Pat: I really hate it. We had this scheduled to do yesterday, and I was like, “Wait, it’s a holiday — great excuse to cancel.” And then I was just praying it wouldn’t happen today. I don’t know what it is…
Peter: Well, I really learned about it once I moved out here [to Portland], and then there was the pandemic. Remember the pandemic?
Pat: Yeah, I recall.
Peter: Catching up with friends on the phone was was pretty big thing for me, moving out here and not having a lot of friends around. But the one guy I could never got on the phone with was Pat Graham.
Pat: [Laughs.]
Peter: We talked about talking, but we never talked on the phone.
Pat: Yeah. And I hope that my close friends realize it’s a a guilt I carry constantly. I used to just be like, “I hate talking on the phone,” and the pandemic made me be like, Oh, I have an issue with this. Because I missed all my friends dearly, and then they would call me and I’d be like, No way, dude. Nate Dionne also gave me shit all the time — your Dogs on Acid bandmate — because he’s a big phone guy. You guys are both big phone guys.
Peter: He’s a huge phone guy. It’s hard to get off the phone with him.
Pat: That’s what I was gonna say — to my credit, he can be an annoying phone guy, where I’m like, “Shut the fuck up, dude!” He’s just like, “Yo, check out this squirrel I found…” [Laughs.]
Peter: Has moving far away from your friends and family made you any more of a phone guy?
Pat: Yeah, I think so. I still kind of dread it, but it’s made me really appreciate the phone calls more. I went back home recently and hung out with my dad — and even living in Philly, my dad lived in the ‘burbs, like, 40 minutes away, and I still was like, I hate coming out here. It’s awkward. And now, we were just sitting around watching golf, and it ruled. So the distance makes you appreciate people for sure. But the phone is still annoying.
Peter: Well, it’s funny because you are, in person, one of the most talkative people, like someone who I think would want to sit around and just bullshit.
Pat: Yeah, I love it. But on the phone it’s like, “What? What was that?” It’s harder to fill the time. But I’m trying. This is going to be a good lesson. I’m going to learn.
Peter: Another difference that we have in our communication styles that we’ve talked about before is I’m a huge fan of small talk. I love the art of small talk. And you’re a big talk guy.
Pat: I’m a big talk guy. But you know what’s funny is, in our conversations about that, I reference you a lot in that you taught me the beauty of small talk, for sure.
Peter: Really?
Pat: Peter and I used to work together, for all the fans out there, and I feel like I watched you meet a lot of new people and form bonds as close or closer than I was forming with people. Because it’s my habit to jump into, “What were your parents like?” And people get uncomfortable and weird.
Peter: I love that.
Pat: I think it’s a combo of I’m genuinely curious, and I’m trying to force an intimacy that maybe if I gave more small talk time would be more organic and natural.
Peter: I mean, it does work. You are good at that. You’re very easy to talk to.
Pat: There’s a fine balance. I’ve run into issues with people where they’re like, “Shut the fuck up, dude, I don’t want to talk about this in front of my friends.”
Peter: I remember when I told you about this interview, too? I was like, “We could just talk about poop for 45 minutes.”
Pat: Right, yeah.
Peter: Do you think we should? I feel like we’d have to start right at the beginning…
Pat: I had a lot of popcorn yesterday — it was like a movie size medium, which is huge. Because of the fiber, I’ve been trying to eat a lot of popcorn. And when you move to LA, you start going to the movies all the time, which is really fun.
Peter: Yeah, you live in Hollywood.
Pat: I know, why would you not go? But I ate a lot of popcorn and this morning I woke up and could barely poop. I knew I had to, but it wasn’t coming at all. But then I got my smoothie — I do a fiber smoothie in the morning — that really helps. So poop has been on my mind.
Peter: Yeah. You know, I would talk about poop for 45 minutes, but I think we can jump from topic to topic. I will tell you — this is kind of on topic, because we’ve got an album coming out, and the cover of that album is Mount St. Helens. Me and Emily hiked to the top of that thing, like, two years ago on the anniversary of the eruption, May 18, and I took a poop on the very tippy top of it.
Pat: Nice. Like, in the bushes?
Peter: In the snow. It was mad snow up there.
Pat: Damn, dude. How do you take care of a poop up there, though? Like, what was the aftermath?
Peter: Well, you dig a hole, basically, and you cover it up. You try to go off trail so no one’s stepping in it. I did learn after this that you’re actually supposed to pack out poop above 7000 ft., because it biodegrades too slowly and it’s not great for the ecology up there. But I didn’t know that at the time and I had to go. So now every time I see that mountain from my doorstep or driving around town, I know that my poop is up there. And anytime I look at the record cover. I know my poop is in there.
Pat: Do you think it’s still up there?
Peter: Hell yeah.
Pat: I’m legit curious now.
Peter: I might have to go find it.
Pat: That’s awesome. So where’d the camping thing come from? I feel like I’ve always known Algernon as an adventure band.
Peter: I like to think so.
Pat: You guys have known each other since high school. Did you guys always do the adventure thing, or did that come later?
Peter: For me, I didn’t really grow up camping. It was, like, mid-20s — I think I can remember my first camping trip. It was Pine Barrens, the mid-aughts, like early Big Mama’s time.
Pat: The whole Big Mama’s crew — Peter and friends in Algernon — all lived in a warehouse in Philly. And you guys all were camping? You were a camping adventure crew?
Peter: That’s where it started for me. I mean, there was definitely on tours sleeping bag in a rest area on the grass, if that counts. But the outdoor thing came later for me. But once it started, it just… I don’t know, I love it. I love being out in nature. And that’s why I’m out here now.
Pat: I was going to say, it really has informed the rest of your life, it feels like.
Peter: It’s a good thing to concentrate on, you know? And it gives you something to do. You always need something to do. I’m getting to be more of a cyclist now.
Pat: Are you going to bike down here? Is that a common thing to do?
Peter: Honestly, don’t put it past me. I would love to do that, for sure.
Pat: I’ve always appreciated your adventurous spirit, because it also leads to completely irresponsible decisions. But in a really beautiful way.
Peter: I mean, if you’re not almost dying, are you really having fun?
Pat: Yeah, exactly.
Peter: Are you getting into any new stuff on the West Coast?
Pat: Again, we’re going to a lot of movies, for sure. I feel like comedy has kind of come into our lives as well, trying to see more comedy. Comedy really mirrors the DIY punk thing pretty well. I feel like living in Philly for so long — I lived there for, like, 36 years — so I was pretty over the DIY music community. Not in like a, “It sucks,” but I was looking for something new to do. But the comedy thing here is really similar. It’s just fun to watch people make weird art and try and get it in front of people. And sometimes it’s really bad, which is even more fun. So it’s been cool.
Peter: I am super nervous about going to live comedy. How you feel about talking on the phone, that’s how I feel about going to live comedy. I just know that if someone’s bombing, I’m going to feel it so empathetically for them. I’m just going to be sweating bullets.
Pat: That’s really fascinating, because I also consider myself empathetic but I think it’s funny in and of itself to bomb. I think comedians think bombing is kind of fun. It kind of gives you a freedom. Some of the best nights I’ve seen are the worst bombs.
Peter: Let’s talk about: we’re both East Coast music legends.
Pat: [Laughs.] It’s true.
Peter: You’ve played in a lot of very popular bands: Spraynard, Big Nothing, Yankee Bluff. But my favorite band of all is the Talking Kind.
Pat: Wow. Thanks, bro.
Peter: The one that’s you and no one else.
Pat: Yeah, that’s what I was always meant to do. Be alone and just be the best.
Peter: Actually, I meant to wear your shirt today, but I forgot. But, yeah, that record is so good. And I’m super… jealous, I think, is the word, at it, at least as I perceived it, kind of coming out of nothing, very nonchalant, “I just want a record, so I’m going to throw some songs together.”
Pat: Totally. I think that project came from, I was playing Big Nothing shows, and I love all those people and I love those songs, but the shows were really boring for me. It became really predictable and I was just trying to find a way to experience shows in a different way. And I would say Talking Kind was almost a litmus test where I was like, Let me see if I do this alone, if I have a good time… And I really didn’t have that good of a time. [Laughs.]
Peter: Like, recording it or playing it?
Pat: I’d say writing and recording, I could do forever. That’s the best part. Writing it, I kind of half-wrote a bunch of songs and then took them to the Bunk, Matt Schimelfenig’s studio up in the Poconos. Kian [Sorouri] came along, and we just kind of jammed out a couple things. But even then I didn’t have vocals. And then I rented an Airbnb in Doylestown one night and wrote all the lyrics in a night by myself, watching the movie Road Trip. So it was just kind of a stream of consciousness project. The only time I had a lot of fun was touring with it. Touring by yourself is awesome. I took my truck out on tour and just kind of showed up to the shows, and the next band would be starting to play and I would just leave. It was awesome.
Peter: Total freedom.
Pat: Just being able to drive to the next city in the middle of the show is really cool.
Peter: Well, I know I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again now on record: We should do another record, me, you and Nick [Tazza]. Let’s fart out some more songs, Pat!
Pat: I’m down. I’ll do it today. I’ll send you at least three today.
Peter: I love it. Hell yeah.
Pat: I am just curious, since you’ve recently sent me this new Algernon record, and it seems like it was pretty easily written. Do you feel like you guys just fart out a couple songs, or did it take a minute to get back in the swing?
Peter: In a way. But it’s like those long farts where you’re on the toilet for, like — well, first of all, you go to the bathroom to fart. This is how much fart it’s going to be. “Gotta sit on the toilet for this fart.” You bring a couple books in with you, a magazine, a Walkman.
Pat: I’m trying to connect this to writing the album.
Peter: Well, all you gotta do is sit there and fart, right? So that’s what we were doing. But it does take a while.
Pat: I don’t know. I feel like it didn’t take you very long.
Peter: That’s true, it’s actually the quickest record we’ve ever made. But everything came out pretty much how we wanted it. It was like, “Wow, that sounds right. We don’t have to try very much to change this into anything else.” Then I guess it was also just a scheduling thing, getting us all together. So it really was just two writing sessions.
Pat: Yeah, that’s what it felt like. Did you guys write songs or were you just jamming it out? Like, did you have structure figured out?
Peter: As per usual, just jamming, and then taking those parts and working them together.
Pat: It’s an interesting record because it is your most song-y. Like, all the songs are songs. There’s a lot of old Algernon where, not in a bad way, but you can tell you guys were jamming it out and just being like, “This is a cool jam, let’s keep it in here.” But I think Dogs kind of forced you guys to be like, “Oh, yeah, we’ve also written pop songs together.”
Peter: Yeah, I think that was just from maybe our age and experience now. When we were structuring them, it made more sense to us. And then something that Joe [Reinhart] or Nick pointed out, that I didn’t even realize until the record was done: I have a lot more words on this.
Pat: A lot more words. That is true.
Peter: I didn’t even realize that. But I think that kind of makes it more structured, more of a straightforward rock song, or something like that.
Pat: Yeah, I feel like your older records, you wrote more stream of consciousness lyrics, whereas these are really clearly songs for the most part, [with] a narrative. Which is cool to witness. A lot of radicalized lyrics, which is cool. It’s cool to watch anybody get older with music and keep things punk.
Peter: Yeah. It wasn’t really a decision, it was just what started coming out. And then the decision was, “Is this going to fit or not?” I made the decision to say, “Sure,” on that really quickly, and it’s just what’s on there.
Pat: I think it fits pretty well, because none of it is hitting you over the head. It’s more like it’s kind of processing in real time — which is a lot of what today’s weird ass world is, trying to process seeing this shit on our phone every day.
Peter: Yeah, I think that’s spot on.
Alright: Sublime or Op Ivy.
Pat: Oh, that’s a really tough question. It’s definitely Op Ivy for me, but I don’t want to downplay Sublime.
Peter: There’s a couple ways you could look at this. I knew this would be a good question for you. So, in just blanket statement, you went Op Ivy. I respect that. What about one band to listen to for the rest of your life?
Pat: Fuck, dude. I think it’s Sublime, for sure. I revisit Sublime more. Even though Op Ivy lights me up in a way that Sublime can’t do, I revisit Sublime as far as jamming out.
Peter: There’s more material, too.
Pat: Yeah. I do listen to them to enjoy it. I feel like I listen Op Ivy if I want to feel something. But Sublime’s just like, I’m at the function and I want to listen to them.
Peter: Alright, now: Sublime or Op Ivy tattoo.
Pat: Oh, no. I don’t have either of those. I wanted to get the Op Ivy guy for a while… I think both.
Peter: [Laughs.] Right?
Pat: It’s gotta be both or none.
Peter: Smash them together — the guy over the sun.
Pat: Oh, absolutely. Maybe the guy with the sun as his head… You told me there was a time in your life where you would have gotten a Sublime back tattoo.
Peter: When I was, like, 16, before I had my first tattoo, I think what I wanted was the Sublime sun. And now I’m 41 and I’m like, That sun’s looking pretty good…
Pat: That’s what I’m saying, dude. Get it. You’re one of the coolest guys I know, and you’d be infinitely cooler. Compared to you with a Sublime sun back tattoo, you’re a loser.
Peter: I would have to never wear a shirt. Which, I feel like I’m getting closer to that phase of my life. I’m wearing sweat shorts most days now when I’m at home. I think sweat shorts, no shirt is just a couple years away.
Pat: Imagine being on some crappy Disney cruise or something and seeing you, no shirt, Sublime back tattoo. It’d be awesome.
Peter: Yeah, I think we’ll do that. Or the Weezer cruise.
Pat: Oh, yeah, do the Weezer cruise. One of the last cool things that exists.
Peter: Have you been on a cruise?
Pat: No, I’ve never been on a cruise, even though it feels like pretty in line with me. As a person who loves malls, I feel like I’m destined for a cruise.
Peter: It’s like a floating mall.
Pat: From what I’ve heard, I think that’s what it is.
Peter: Well, now that we’ve had this phone conversation, you went through with it, how would you rate it? And do you think you’re going to have more phone conversations based on this one?
Pat: If us hanging out in person is a 10 out of 10, this was, like, a six-and-a-half.
Peter: Fair.
Pat: And I’d say phone call-wise… I don’t think so. [Laughs.] I’m willing to fly to hang out with people — I’ll go anywhere to hang out. Instead of calling me next time, just book a plane ticket.
Peter: Well, it’s funny you say that. I’ll actually be in LA later this week. So we can hang out in person.
Pat: Hell yeah, dude. Let’s hang.
